Civilization and Transcendence

[Kalpana.v]

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda
Replies to a Questionnaire
From Bhavan's Journal
June 28, 1976

CAT 1: Religion with No Conception of God?









Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this questionnaire was sent to you by Bhavan's Journal, a cultural and religious magazine in Bombay. They are questioning various religious and spiritual leaders, trying to get the answers to some of the important questions that are perplexing people today. So there's a list of questions, and the first is this: "Is the influence of religion over the masses on the wane?"

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes. This is predicted in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam [12.2.1]:

tataś cānu-dinaṁ dharmaḥ
satyaṁ śaucaṁ kṣamā dayā
kālena balinā rājan
naṅkṣyaty āyur balaṁ smṛtiḥ

"In Kali-yuga, this age of quarrel and hypocrisy, there shall be a waning of these qualities: religiosity, truthfulness, cleanliness, tolerance, memory, bodily strength, duration of life, and mercy." These are the human assets—qualities which make a human being distinct from the animals. But these things will decline. There will be almost no mercy, there will be almost no truthfulness, memory will be shortened, duration of life shortened. Similarly, religion will practically vanish. So that means gradually human beings will descend to the platform of animals.

Especially when there is no religion, human beings are simply animals. This any common man can distinguish—that a dog does not understand what religion is. The dog is also a living being, but he's not interested in what is being discussed here about Bhagavad-gītā or Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. That is the distinction between man and dog: the animal is not interested. So when human beings are becoming uninterested in religion, then they're becoming animals.

And how can there be happiness or peace in animal society? The big leaders want to keep the citizenry as animals, and at the same time they are striving to make a United Nations. How is it possible? United Animals? Is it possible? Society for United Animals. [Laughter.] In the science of logic it is said, "Man is a rational animal." So when rationality is missing, one becomes simply an animal. What is the possibility of being a human being?

In human society, whether you are a Christian or a Muhammadan or a Hindu or a Buddhist, it doesn't matter. But there must be some system of religion—that is human society. And human society without religion—animal society. This is the plain fact. Why are people unhappy now? Because they are neglecting religion.

One gentleman has written me that Marx said, "Religion is the opium of the people." That means the Communists are very adamant against God consciousness because they think that religion has spoiled the whole social atmosphere. Religion might have been misused, but that does not mean that religion should be avoided. Real religion should be taken. Simply because religion has not been properly executed by the so-called priests, that does not mean religion should be rejected. If my eye is giving me some kind of trouble on account of a cataract, that doesn't mean my eye should be plucked out. The cataract should be removed. So that is the idea of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement—to remove the cataract from people's religious vision.

Generally, modern so-called religious leaders have no conception of God, and yet they are preaching religion. What good is that religion? People are simply being misled. Real religion means God's order: dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. If your religion has no conception of God, where is the question of religion? Still, without any conception of God, they are professing some religion. How long will it go on artificially? It will deteriorate. That ignorance about God has resulted in the present condition.

Religion means the order of God, just as law means the order of the state. Now, if in your social system there is no state, where is the question of the state's order? You will simply manufacture your own order. Today that is going on in the field of religion: there is no conception of God and therefore no following of God's order.

But we devotees of Kṛṣṇa have a clear conception of God. Here is God: Kṛṣṇa. And He's giving orders. We accept those orders. So it is clear religion. But if there is no conception of God, no order of God, then where is the question of religion? Ask someone in some other religious system what their conception of the form of God is. Can anyone tell clearly? Nobody can say. But we shall immediately say,

veṇuṁ kvaṇantam aravinda-dalāyatākṣaṁ
barhāvataṁsam asitāmbudha-sundarāṅgam
kandarpa-koṭi-kamanīya-viśeṣa-śobhaṁ
govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi

"I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who is adept at playing on His flute, whose eyes are like petals of a blooming lotus, whose head is bedecked with a peacock's feather, whose figure of beauty is tinged with the hue of blue clouds, and whose unique loveliness charms millions of Cupids." [Brahma-saṁhitā 5.30]

Immediately, description—"Here is God." Then there is religion. And if there is no conception of God, where is the question of religion? Bogus. That is why religiosity and the other noble human qualities are declining. People have no conception of God, and therefore there is no understanding of religion. As a result, the whole human civilization is declining. And because it is declining, human beings are becoming more and more like animals.

[Kalpana.v]

CAT 2: Progressing Beyond "Progress"

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Question number two?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "The traditional charge against Hinduism is that it is fatalistic, that it inhibits progress by making people slaves to the belief in the inevitability of what is to happen. How far is this charge true?"

Śrīla Prabhupāda: The charge is false. Those who have made that charge do not know what "Hinduism" is. First of all, the Vedic scriptures make no mention of such a thing as "Hinduism." but they do mention sanātana-dharma, the eternal and universal religion, and also varṇāśrama-dharma, the natural organization of human society. That we can find in the Vedic scriptures.

So it is a false charge that the Vedic system inhibits the progress of mankind. What is that "progress"? A dog's jumping is progress? [Laughter.] A dog is running here and there on four legs, and you are running on four wheels. Is that progress?

The Vedic system is this: The human being has a certain amount of energy—better energy than the animals', better consciousness—and that energy should be utilized for spiritual advancement. So the whole Vedic system is meant for spiritual advancement. Human energy is employed in a more exalted direction than to compete with the dog.

Consequently, sometimes those who have no idea of religion notice that the Indian saintly persons are not working hard like dogs. Spiritually uncultured people think the dog race is life. But actual life is spiritual progress. Therefore the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam [1.5.18] says,

tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido
na labhyate yad bhramatām upary adhaḥ
tal labhyate duḥkhavad anyataḥ sukhaṁ
kālena sarvatra gabhīra-raṁhasā

The human being should exert his energy for that thing which he did not get in many, many lives. Through many, many lives the soul has been in the forms of dogs or demigods or cats or birds or insects. There are 8,400,000 material forms. So this transmigration is going on, but in every one of these millions of forms, the business is sense gratification. The dog is busy for sense gratification: "Where is food? Where is shelter? Where is a mate? How to defend?" And the man is also doing the same business, in different ways.

So this struggle for existence is going on, life after life. Even a small insect is engaging in the same struggle—āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunam—eating, sleeping, defending, and mating. Bird, beast, insect, fish—everywhere the same struggle: "Where is food? Where is sex? Where is shelter? How to defend?" So the śāstra [scripture] says we have done these things in many, many past lives, and if we don't get out of this struggle for existence, we'll have to do them again in many, many future lives. So these things should be stopped.

Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja advises his friends [Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 7.6.3],

sukham aindriyakaṁ daityā
deha-yogena dehinām
sarvatra labhyate daivād
yathā duḥkham ayatnataḥ

"My dear friends, material pleasure—which is due simply to this material body—is essentially the same in any body. And just as misery comes without our trying for it, so the happiness we deserve will also come, by higher arrangement." A dog has a material body, and I have a material body. So my sex pleasure and the dog's sex pleasure is the same. Of course, a dog is not afraid of having sex on the street, in front of everyone. We hide it in a nice apartment. That's all. But the activity is the same. There is no difference.

Still, people are taking this sex pleasure between a man and woman in a nice decorated apartment as very advanced. But this is not advanced. And yet they are making a dog's race for this "advancement." Prahlāda Mahārāja says we are imagining that there are different types of pleasure on account of different types of body, but the pleasure is fundamentally the same.

Naturally, according to the different types of body, there are some external differences in the pleasure, but the basic amount and quality of this pleasure has very well defined limitations. That is called destiny. A pig has a certain type of body, and his eatable is stool. This is destined. You cannot change it—"Let the pig eat halavā." That is not possible. Because the soul has a particular type of body, he must eat a particular type of food. Can anyone, any scientist, improve the standard of living of a pig? Is it possible? [Laughter.]

Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja says that everything about material pleasure is already fixed. The uncivilized men in the jungle are having the same sex pleasure as the so-called civilized men who boast, "Instead of living in that hut made of leaves, we are living in a skyscraper building. This is advancement."

But Vedic civilization says, "No, this is not advancement. Real advancement is self-realization—how much you have realized your relationship with god."

Sometimes people misunderstand, thinking that sages who try for self-realization are lazy. In a high-court a judge is sitting soberly, apparently doing nothing, and he is getting the highest salary. And another man in the same court—he's working hard all day long, rubber-stamping, and he is getting not even one-tenth of the judge's salary. He's thinking, "I am so busy and working so hard, yet I am not getting a good salary. And this man is just sitting on the bench, and he's getting such a fat salary." The criticism of Hinduism as "inhibiting progress" is like that: it comes out of ignorance. The Vedic civilization is for self-realization. It is meant for the intelligent person, the person who will not just work like an ass but who will try for that thing which he did not achieve in so many other lives—namely, self-realization.

For example, we are sometimes labeled "escapists." What is the charge?

Disciple: They say we are escaping from reality.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, we are escaping their reality. But their reality is a dog's race, and our reality is to advance in self-realization, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is the difference. Therefore the mundane, materialistic workers have been described as mūḍhas, asses. Why? Because the ass works very hard for no tangible gain. He carries on his back tons of cloth for the washerman, and the washerman in return gives him a little morsel of grass. Then the ass stands at the washerman's door, eating the grass, while the washerman loads him up again. The ass has no sense to think, "If I get out of the clutches of this washerman, I can get grass anywhere. Why am I carrying so much?"

The mundane workers are like that. They're busy at the office, very busy. If you want to see the fellow, "I am very busy now." [Laughter.] So what is the result of your being so busy? "Well, I take two pieces of toast and one cup of tea. That's all." [Laughter.] And for this purpose you are so busy?

Or, he is busy all day simply so that in the evening he can look at his account books and say, "Oh, the balance had been one thousand dollars—now it has become two thousand." That is his satisfaction. But still he will have the same two pieces of bread and one cup of tea, even though he has increased his balance from one thousand to two thousand. And still he'll work hard. This is why karmīs are called mūḍhas. They work like asses, without any real aim of life.

But Vedic civilization is different. The accusation implied in the question is not correct. In the Vedic system, people are not lazy. They are very busy working for a higher purpose. And that busy-ness is so important that Prahlāda Mahārāja says, kaumāra ācaret prājño: [SB 7.6.1] "Beginning from childhood, one should work for self-realization." One should not lose a second's time. So that is Vedic civilization.

Of course, the materialistic workers—they see, "These men are not working like us, like dogs and asses. So they are escaping."

Yes, escaping your fruitless endeavor.

The Vedic civilization of self-realization begins from the varṇāśrama system of social organization. Varnāśramācāravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān viṣṇur ārādhyate: [Cc. Madhya 8.58] "Everyone should offer up the fruits of his occupational duty to the lotus feet of the Lord Viṣṇu , or Kṛṣṇa." That is why the Vedic system is called varṇāśrama—literally, "social organization with a spiritual perspective."

The varṇāśrama system has four social and four spiritual divisions. the social divisions are the brāhmaṇas [teachers and priests], kṣatriyas [administrators and military men], vaiśyas [farmers and merchants], and śūdras [laborers and craftsmen], while the spiritual divisions are the brahmacārīs [students], gṛhasthas [householders], vānaprasthas [retirees], and sannyāsīs [renunciants]. But the ultimate goal is viṣṇur ārādhyate—the worship of the Supreme Lord, Viṣṇu , by all. That is the idea.

But the members of the modern so-called civilization do not know of varṇāśrama. Therefore they have created a society that is simply a dog's race. The dog is running on four legs, and thay are running on four wheels. That's all. And they think the four-wheel race is advancement of civilization.

Vedic civilization is different. As Nārada Muni says, tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido na labhyate yad bhramatām upary adhaḥ: [SB 1.5.18] the learned, astute person will use this life to gain what he has missed in countless prior lives—namely, realization of self and realization of God. Someone may ask, "Then shall we do nothing?" Yes do nothing simply to improve your material position. Whatever material happiness is allotted for you by destiny, you'll get it wherever you are. Take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You'll get these other things besides.

"How shall I get them?"

How? Kālena sarvatra gabhīra-raṁhasā: by the arrangement of eternal time, everything will come about in due course. The example is given that even though you do not want distress, still distress comes upon you. Similarly, even if you do not work hard for the happiness that is destined to be yours, still it will come.

Similarly, Prahlāda Mahārāja says, na tat-prayāsaḥ kartavyam: you should not waste your energy for material happiness, because you cannot get more than what you are destined to have. That is not possible. "How can I believe it—that by working harder I will not get more material happiness than I would otherwise have had?"

Because you are undergoing so many distressing conditions even though you do not want them. Who wants distress? For example, in our country, Mahatma Gandhi was killed by his own countrymen. He was a great man, he was protected by so many followers, he was beloved by all—and still he was killed. Destiny. Who can protect you from all these distressing conditions?

"So," you should conclude, "if these distressing conditions come upon me by force, the other kind of condition, the opposite number, will also come. Therefore why shall I waste my time trying to avoid distress and gain so-called happiness? Let me utilize my energy for Kṛṣṇa consciousness." That is intelligence. You cannot check your destiny. The magazine's question touches on this point.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, the usual charge is that this Vedic system of civilization is fatalistic, and that as a result people are not making as much material progress as they otherwise would.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: No, no, the Vedic system is not fatalistic. It is fatalistic only in the sense that one's material destiny cannot be changed. But your spiritual life is in your hands. our point is this: The whole Vedic civilization is based on the understanding that destiny allows only a certain amount of material happiness in this world, and that our efforts should therefore be directed toward self-realization. Nobody is enjoying uninterrupted material happiness. That is not possible. A certain amount of material happiness and a certain amount of material distress—these both must be present always. So just as you cannot check your distressing condition of life, similarly you cannot check your happy condition of life. It will come automatically. Therefore, don't waste your time with these things. better you utilize your energy for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So then, Śrīla Prabhupāda, would it be accurate, after all, to say that people who have this Vedic conception would not try for progress?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: No, no. "Progress"—first you must understand what actual progress is. The thing is that if you try to progress vainly, what is the use of trying? If it is a fact you cannot change your material destiny, why should you try for that? Rather, whatever energy you have, utilize it for understanding Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is real progress. Make your spiritual understanding—your understanding of God and self—perfectly clear.

For instance, in our International Society for Krishna Consciousness, our main business is how to make advancement in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are not enthusiastic about opening big, big factories with big, big money-earning machines. No. We are satisfied with whatever material happiness and distress we are destined. But we are very eager to utilize our energy for progressing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is the point.

So the Vedic system of civilization is meant for realizing God: viṣṇur ārādhyate. In the Vedic system, people try for that. Actually, the followers of varṇāśrama-dharma—they never tried for economic development. You'll find in India, still, millions of people taking bath in the Ganges during Kumbha-melā. Have you have been to the Kumbha-melā festival?

Disciple: No.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: At the Kumbha-melā, millions of people come to take bath in the Ganges because they are interested in how to become spiritually liberated from this material world. They're not lazy. They tavel thousands of miles to take bath in the Ganges at the holy place of Prayag. So although they are not busy in the dog's race, these people are not lazy. Yā niśā sarva-bhūtānāṁ tasyāṁ jāgarti saṁyamī: "What is night for ordinary beings is the time of wakefulness for the self-controlled." The self-controlled man wakes up very early—practically in the middle of the night—and works for spiritual realization while others are sleeping. Similarly, during the daytime the dogs and asses think, "We are working, but these spiritualists, they are not working."

So there are two different platforms, the material and the spiritual. Followers of the Vedic civilization, which is practiced in India—although nowadays it is distorted—actually, these people are not lazy. They are very, very busy. Not only very, very busy, but also kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha: [SB 7.6.1] they are trying to become self-realized from the very beginning of life. They are so busy that they want to begin the busy-ness from their very childhood. Therefore it is wrong to think they are lazy.

People who accuse followers of Vedic civilization of laziness or of "inhibiting progress" do not know what real progress is. The Vedic civilization is not interested in the false progress of economic development. For instance, sometimes people boast, "We have gone from the hut to the skyscraper." They think this is progress. But in the Vedic system of civilization, one thinks about how much he is advanced in self-realization. He may live in a hut and become very advanced in self-realzation. But if he wastes his time turning his hut into a skyscraper, then his whole life is wasted, finished. And in his next life he is going to be a dog, although he does not know it. That's all.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, then this question may be raised: If destiny cannot be checked, then why not, when a child is born, simply let him run around like an animal? And whatever happens to him . . .

Śrīla Prabhupāda: No. That is the advantage of this human form of life. You can train the child spiritually. That is possible. Therefore it is said, tasyaiva hetoḥ prayeteta kovido: use this priceless human form to attain what you could not attain in so many millions of lower forms. For that spiritual purpose you should engage your energy. That advantage is open to you now, in the human form. Ahaituky apratihatā: pure devotional service to the Lord, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, is open to you now, and it cannot be checked. Just as your advancement of so-called material happiness is already destined and cannot be checked, similarly, your advancement in spiritual life cannot be checked—if you endeavor for it. No one can check your spiritual advancement. Try to understand this.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So, then, we can't say that the Vedic system, or sanātana-dharma, is fatalistic. There actually is endeavor for progress.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Certainly—spiritual progress. As for the question of "fatalistic," I have often given this example: Let us say a man is condemned by a court of law to be hanged. Nobody can check it. Even the same judge who gave the verdict cannot check it. But if the man begs for the mercy of the king, the king can check the execution. He can go totally above the law. Therefore the Brahma-saṁhitā [5.54] says, karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhājām: destiny can be changed by Kṛṣṇa for His devotees; otherwise it is not possible.

therefore our only business should be to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. And if you artificially want to be more happy by economic development, that is not possible.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Question number three?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Hm? No. First of all make sure that everything is clear. Why are you so eager to progress? [Laughter.]

Try to understand what is what. The first thing is that your destiny cannot be changed. That's a fact. But in spite of your destiny, if you try for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you can achieve spiritual success. Otherwise, why did Prahlāda Mahārāja urge his friends, kaumāra ācāret: "Take Kṛṣṇa consciousness up from your very childhood"? If destiny cannot be changed, then why was Prahlāda Mahārāja urging this? Generally, "destiny" means your material future. That you cannot change. But even that can be changed when you are in spiritual life.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What is the meaning of apratihatā? You said that spiritual development cannot be checked.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Apratihatā means this: Suppose you are destined to suffer. So apratihatā means that in spite of your so-called destiny to suffer, if you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness your suffering will be reduced, or there will be no suffering—and in spite of any suffering, you can make progress in spiritual life. Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja himself. His father put him into so many suffering conditions, but he was not impeded—he made spiritual progress. He didn't care about his father's attempts to make him suffer. That state of existence is called apratihatā: if you want to execute Kṛṣṇa consciousness, your material condition of life cannot check it. That is the real platform of progress.

Of course, insofar as your material condition is concerned, generally that cannot be checked. You have to suffer. But in the case of a devotee, that suffering also can be stopped or minimized. Otherwise, Kṛṣṇa's statement would be false: ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi [Bg. 18.66]—"I will deliver you from all the reactions to your sinful activities." Suffering must befall me on account of my sinful activities, but Kṛṣṇa says, "I will deliver you from all the reactions to your sinful activities." This should be clear. Ordinarily, destiny cannot be checked. Therefore, instead of wasting your time trying to change your economic condition or material destiny apart from Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you should employ your priceless human energy for attaining Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which cannot be checked.

We see so many men working so hard. Does this mean that every one of them will become a Ford, a Rockefeller? Why not? Everyone is trying his best. But Mr. Ford was destined to become a rich man. His destiny was there, and so he became a rich man. Another man may work just as hard as Ford, but this does not mean he will become as rich as Ford. This is practical. You cannot change your destiny simply by working hard like asses and dogs. No. But you can utilize your special human energy for improving your Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That's a fact.

Disciple: Śrīla Prabhupāda, if destiny cannot be changed, what does Kṛṣṇa mean when He says, "Be thou happy by this sacrifice"?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Do you know what is meant by "sacrifice"?

Disciple: Sacrifice to Viṣṇu , to Kṛṣṇa.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes. That means pleasing Kṛṣṇa. If Kṛṣṇa is pleased, He can change destiny. Karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhājām: [Bs. 5.54] for those who serve Him with love and devotion, Kṛṣṇa can change destiny. So sacrifice, yajña, means pleasing Kṛṣṇa. Our whole Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means pleasing Kṛṣṇa. That is the whole program. In all other business, there is no question of pleasing Kṛṣṇa. When one nation declares war upon another, there is no question of pleasing Kṛṣṇa or serving Kṛṣṇa. They're pleasing their own senses, serving their own whims. When the First and Second World Wars began, it was not for pleasing Kṛṣṇa. The Germans wanted that their sense gratification not be hampered by the Britishers. That means it was a war of sense gratification. "The Britishers are achieving their sense gratification; we cannot. All right, fight." So there was no question of pleasing Kṛṣṇa. Hm. Next question?

[Kalpana.v]

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Question number three. "It is said that the greatest strength of Hinduism is its catholicity, or breadth of outlook, but that this is also its greatest weakness, in that there are very few common prescribed religious observances which are obligatory for all, as in other religions. Is it necessary and possible to outline certain basic minimum observances for all Hindus?"

Śrīla Prabhupāda: So far as the Vedic religion is concerned, it is not simply for the so-called Hindus. That is to be understood. This is sanātana-dharma, the eternal and universal nature and duty of every living being. It is for all living entities, all living beings. That is why it is called sanātana-dharma. That I have already explained. The living entity is sanātana, or eternal; God is sanātana; and there is sanātana-dhāma, the Lord's eternal abode. As Kṛṣṇa describes in the Bhagavad-gītā [8.20], paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ: "Yet there is another unmanifest nature, which is eternal." And in the Eleventh Chapter Kṛṣṇa Himself is described as sanātanaḥ. Do you remember? He is described as sanātanaḥ, the supreme eternal.

So actually, the Vedic system is called sanātana-dharma, not Hindu dharma. This is a wrong conception. This sanātana-dharma is meant for all living entities, not just the so-called Hindus. The very term "Hindu" is a misconception. The Muslims referred to the Indian people, who lived on the other side of the river Sind, as "Sindus"—actually, due to the peculiarities of pronunciation, as "Hindus." In any case, the Muslims called India "Hindustan," which means "the land on the other side of the river Sind, or 'Hind.'" Otherwise, "Hindustan" has no Vedic reference. So this "Hindu dharma" has no Vedic reference.

The real Vedic dharma is sanātana-dharma, or varṇāśrama-dharma. First of all, one has to understand this. Now that sanātana-dharma, or Vedic dharma, is being disobeyed, distorted, and misrepresented, it has come to be misunderstood as "Hinduism." That is a fake understanding. That is not the real understanding. We have to study sanātana-dharma, or varṇāśrama-dharma. Then we'll understand what the Vedic religion is.

Every living entity is eternal, sanātana. God is also eternal, and we can live with God in His sanātana-dhāma, His eternal abode. This reciprocation is called sanātana-dharma, the eternal nature and duty of the living being. So Vedic religion means this sanātana-dharma, not "Hindu dharma." Read the verse from Bhagavad-gītā that describes Kṛṣṇa as sanātanaḥ.

Radha-vallabha:

tvam akṣaraṁ paramaṁ veditavyaṁ
tvam asya viśvasya paraṁ nidhānam
tvam avyayaḥ śāśvata-dharma-goptā
sanātanas tvaṁ puruṣo mato me

"You are the supreme primal objective You are the ultimate resting place of this universe. You are inexhaustible, and You are the supreme eternal. You are the maintainer of the eternal religion, the Personality of Godhead. This is my opionion." [Bhagavad-gītā 11.18]

Śrīla Prabhupāda: This understanding is wanted. Kṛṣṇa is eternal, we are eternal, and the place where we will live with Him and exchange our feelings—that is eternal. And the system which teaches this eternal system of reciprocation—that is called sanātana-dharma, the eternal religion. It is meant for everyone.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How can people follow sanātana-dharma on a practical, daily basis?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: How are we doing it? Is it not practical? Kṛṣṇa requests, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru: [Bg. 18.65] "Always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me, and offer your obeisances to Me." Where is the impracticality? Where is the difficulty? And Kṛṣṇa promises, mām evaiṣyasy asaṁṣaya: "If you do this, you'll come to Me. Without any doubt you'll come to Me." Why don't you do that?

Later Kṛṣṇa requests, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja: [Bg. 18.66] "Give up all varieties of concocted religion and simply surrender to Me." This is practical religion. Just surrender to Kṛṣṇa and think, "I am a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, a servant of Kṛṣṇa." Take this simple approach. Then everything will be immediately done. Real dharma, real religion, means dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam: [SB 6.3.19] what God says, that is dharma. Now, God says, "give up all this concocted dharma and just surrender unto Me." So take that dharma.

Why don't you take Kṛṣṇa's instruction? Why do you go outside His instruction? That is the cause of all your troubles. You do not know the difference between this sanātana-dharma, the real, eternal religion, and your concocted dharma. If you take to some false religious system, then you suffer. But if you take to the real religious system, then you'll be happy.

Of course, nowadays India, like the rest of the world, has also given up the real religious system—sanātana-dharma, or varṇāśrama-dharma. In India they have accepted a hodgepodge thing called "Hinduism." So there is trouble. Everywhere, but in India especially, people should know that the real religion is this Vedic system. Vedic religion means varṇāśrama-dharma. Kṛṣṇa says—God says—cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam: [Bg. 4.13] "For spiritual and material progress, the four occupational divisions of society have been set up by Me." So that is obligatory, just as the state law is obligatory. You cannot say, "I don't accept this law." No. You have to accept it if you want to have a happy life. You cannot become an outlaw. Then you'll not be happy. You'll be punished.

Now, God says, mayā sṛṣṭam: "This varṇāśrama system is given by Me." So how can we refuse to follow it? that means we are denying the real religion. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam: [SB 6.3.19] real dharma, real religion, means the order given by God. And God says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ: [Bg. 4.13] "For the proper management of human society, I have created these four social divisions, based on people's qualities and actions." So you have to accept it.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This would be the prescription for all people?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: For everyone. At the head of the social body there must be the intelligent class of men, who will give advice; then there must be the administrative and protective class, the farming and mercantile class, and the laboring class. This is all given in the Bhagavad-gītā: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra.

But when you fully surrender to Kṛṣṇa, you can give up all the regulations pertaining to these four social classes. That is why Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya: [Bg. 18.66] "In the ultimate issue, My instruction is to give up all religious formularies"—including even Vedic formularies—"and simply surrender to Me." "Brāhmaṇa-dharma," "kṣatriya-dharma,""Hindu dharma," this dharma, that dharma—give all these up and simply surrender to Kṛṣṇa, because the ultimate aim of dharma is to come to Kṛṣṇa. "You directly come to Me; then everything is all right."

Disciple: So many people concoct their own system and say, "This is the way to go to God."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Then let them suffer. What can be done? If you don't accept the laws of the state and you manufacture your own laws, then you'll suffer. The state says, "Keep to the right." But if you make your own law—"No, I will keep to the left"—then you'll suffer. It's a fact.

Kṛṣṇa is personally advising: sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja: [Bg. 18.66] "Give up all your concocted religions and surrender to Me alone." take His advice and be happy.

[Kalpana.v]

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Next question, Śrīla Prabhupāda. "Will the fundamental values of the Vedic religion be in any way affected by the eradication of the caste system, toward which a concerted effort is now being made at all levels?"

Śrīla Prabhupāda: The Vedic system of religion we have been describing—the varṇāśrama system created by Kṛṣṇa—is not to be confused with the present-day caste system—determination of social divisions by birth. But as to eradication of all social divisions, it cannot be done. This is still more foolishness, because Kṛṣṇa Himself says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ: [Bg. 4.13] "This system of four social divisions, according to quality and work, is ordained by Me." But the difficulty is that this so-called caste system has come in, on account of the false notion that in order to be a brāhmaṇa, one must be the son of a brāhmaṇa. That is the caste system. But Kṛṣṇa does not say that. He says "according to quality and work." He never says "according to birth." So this so-called caste system in India is a false notion of cātur-varṇyaṁ, the system of four social divisions. The real system of cātur-varṇyaṁ means guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ, determination of the four social divisions according to quality and work. One must be qualified.

And how does one become qualified? That is also described. For instance, in Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa describes the qualities of a brāhmaṇa as follows: śamo damas tapaḥ śaucaṁ kṣāntir ārjavam eva ca jñānam vijñānam āstikyam [Bg. 18.42]. "Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, knowledge, wisdom, and religiousness." So people who want to become brāhmaṇas must be educated to acquire these qualities. It is not enough simply to abolish the caste system, which is contaminated by the false conception of qualification by birthright. Certainly, this wrong caste system should be abolished. Also, educational centers should be opened for teaching people how to become genuine brāhmaṇas and kṣatriyas. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ: [Bg. 4.13] according to their qualities and work, people naturally belong to different social groupings. So you cannot avoid it, but because you have created a false caste system, that should be abolished, and the system recommended by Kṛṣṇa—that should be adopted.

In any event, you cannot avoid the natural occurrence of various social divisions. Nature's caste system will remain. Take, for example, the brahminical quality of truthfulness. All over the world, wherever you go, you'll find at least one person who is truthful. Does anyone say, "Oh, his father was truthful—therefore, he is truthful"? This is nonsense. Kṛṣṇa never says anything like this. The father may be Hiraṇyakaśipu, a big demon, but his son can still be Prahlāda, a great devotee of the Lord. It is not that one will inevitably become exactly like one's father. Of course, it may be; there is every possibility. But still it is not a fact that the son unavoidably becomes like the father.

Our point is, wherever you go, you'll find a first-class man who is truthful. Now, wherever you find a truthful man, you can classify him as a brāhmaṇa and train him to serve the social body in that capacity, as a spiritual teacher and advisor. That is wanted. Why assume, "Here is the son of a truthful man; therefore he is truthful, a brāhmaṇa"? That is a misconception. You have to find the truthful men all over the world and train them as brāhmaṇas. That we are doing. "If you follow these principles—no illicit sex, no intoxication, no gambling, no meat-eating—you are a brāhmaṇa. Come on and receive further training." The fellow's father may be a meat-eater or a gambler or a drunkard, but if he himself is truthful and agreeable to the brahminical life, then tell him, "All right, come on—you are welcome." Then everything will be all right.

You could not abolish the truthful class of men even if you wanted to. You'll find truthful men everywhere. You simply have to train them. So Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ: [Bg. 4.13] according to their qualities and work, you take some men and put them in the brahminical class, others in the kṣatriya class, still others in the vaiśya class, and the rest in the śūdra class. But you cannot abolish that system. That is a false attempt.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You're saying the natural system is to classify a person and train him for a particular duty, according to his particular inner qualities and his particular propensity to act.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes. That classification is wanted. That must be there.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And what will be the benefit of classifying and training people according to their own qualities and propensities?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: The benefit will be that the whole social body will function harmoniously. The social body must have a brain and arms and a belly and legs to be complete. If there is no brain, no head, then what is the use of these arms and legs and belly? It is all dead. So in human society, if there is not a class of learned, truthful, and honest men—men with all the brahminical qualifications—then society is ruined. That is why people are perplexed. Today almost everyone is trained to be a śūdra, a laborer: "Go to the factory." That's all. "Go to the factory and get money." And when the man gets some money, he immediately purchases wine and women. So if you try to make society classless, you'll produce such men—useless men, disturbing to the social body. You cannot make society classless. If you try to make it classless, naturally people will all be śūdras, fourth-class men, and worse. Then there will be social chaos.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But can all people take an equal interest in religion, despite their belonging to different social classifications?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes. This I have already explained, that any civilized human being—he has got some religion. Now, the basic principles of religion are the statements made by God. So here in the Vedic system is what God says. If you take to this system, then the social body will be perfect, not only for Hindus but also for Christians, for Muhammadans, for everyone. And that is being practically realized in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We have got devotees from all groups of human society, and they are taking to this Vedic system. It is practical. There is no difficulty. So Hindus, Muslims, Christians—everyone should take to this Kṛṣṇa religion and become "Krishnites," "Krishnians." [Laughter.] The Greek word Christo comes from the Sanskrit Krishna. In fact, another spelling of Krishna is Krishta. So actually, if we take the root meaning,"Christian" means "Krishtian" or "Krishnian." So that is a controversial point, but everyone can take to Kṛṣṇa. Then everything will be settled up.

[Kalpana.v]

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Would you like to hear another question, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "It is said that whereas the śrutis [the four original Vedas, the upaniṣads, and the Vedānta-sūtra] embody eternal truths, the smṛtis [the Purāṇas, the Mahābhārata, the Rāmāyaṇa, and corollary Vedic literature] embody the rules of conduct and thus need to be revised according to the dictates of the changing times. Will such a view be acceptable to all sections of society, and if so, how can the new smṛtis come into being, and who will give them sanction and sanctity?"

Śrīla Prabhupāda: The smṛtis are given by the Lord and His representatives. They come from spiritual authorities such as Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. The śāstra, or scripture, also gives this authority. For instance, for this age, Kali-yuga, the Lord has prescribed a special means of God-realization—the chanting of His holy name. Smṛtis such as the Bṛhan-nāradīya Purāṇa say the same thing—that in this age of Kali-yuga, the only possible means of God-realization is chanting the Lord's name. In the Bhāgavata Purāṇa [12.3.51] also, Śukadeva Gosvāmī directs,

kaler doṣa-nidhe rājann
asti hy eko mahān guṇaḥ
kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya
mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet

"Although in this age there are so many faults—it is truly an ocean of faults—still, there is one very great advantage: simply by chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, one becomes fully purified and is liberated from all material miseries." So this smṛti injunction we should take up, and actually we see all over the world how it is purifying all sections of people. Take to this chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa; then śruti, smṛti, everything will be fulfilled. This is the easiest method. Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet: [SB 12.3.51] chant the Lord's holy name and you'll be liberated.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So the śrutis are eternally relevant and constant?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, everything is based on the śrutis. as the Vedānta-sūtra says, anāvṛttiḥ śabdāt: simply by chanting the Lord's names and instructions—His sound vibration—one becomes spiritually realized. Śabda brahman means "spiritual sound vibration," and as the Vedānta-sūtra instructs us, by chanting this spiritual sound vibration—the instructions and holy name of the Lord—one can become liberated.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Also, the smṛtis are directly based on the original śrutis?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, for instance, Bhagavad-gītā is considered smṛti. And Bhagavad-gītā also says, satatāṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ: [Bg. 9.14] "Fully endeavoring with determination, the great souls are always chanting My glories." And as the Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu, which is also considered smṛti, explains: śruti-smṛti-purāṇādi [Brs.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is smṛti more than just rules of conduct?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes. Here is what smṛti means:

The four original Vedas are considered śruti. But simply by hearing them, one cannot understand fully. Therefore, the smṛtis have explained further. Purayati iti purāṇa: by hearing the Purāṇas and other smṛtis, one makes his understanding complete. The Vedic mantras are not always understood. For instance, the Vedānta, which is śruti, begins with the mantra janmādy asya yataḥ: [SB 1.1.1] "The Supreme is that being from whom everything has emanated." This is very abbreviated. But the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, which is smṛti, explains, janmādy asya yato 'nvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñāḥ sva-rāt: [SB 1.1.1] "The Supreme Being, from whom everything has emanated, is directly and indirectly cognizant of everything and is fully independent." In this way the smṛti explains the śruti.

So whether you take śruti or smṛti, the subject matter is the same. Both śruti and smṛti are spiritual evidence. We cannot do without either of them. As Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī says in the Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu [1.2.101],

śruti-smṛti-purāṇādi-
pañcarātra-vidhiṁ vinā
aikāntiki harer bhaktir
utpātāyaiva kalpate
[Brs.

You cannot become purified or actually God conscious without reference to both śruti and smṛti. So as we push on this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, it is not whimsical. It is based on śruti, smṛti, and pañcarātriki-vidhi, the principles of śruti, smṛti, and the Nārada Pañcarātra. Therefore, it is becoming effective

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Nevertheless, Śrīla Prabhupāda, the question asks, "Do the smṛtis need to be revised according to the changing times?"

Śrīla Prabhupāda: They cannot be changed.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The smṛtis cannot be changed?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Nothing can be changed. But according to the time, you have to apply the principles properly. For instance, in Kali-yuga the smṛti order is kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet: [SB 12.3.51] to obtain spiritual liberation, one must chant the holy name of the Lord, Hare Kṛṣṇa. So you have to do this. For instance, a doctor may order, "In the morning, take this medicine; in the evening, take that medicine." It is not a change of the doctor's orders. It is simply that according to the time, the doctor's orders call for a particular medicine. But the particular medicine is recommended by the doctor, not by your whims. Śruti and smṛti cannot be changed, but they may recommend a particular process at a particular time. So there must be adherence to both śruti and smṛti—to scriptural authority. You cannot modify.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There is no question, then, of—as the magazine puts it—"new smṛti."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: No. New smṛti? they may take it as "new smṛti," but smṛti is smṛti—it is not new. In any spiritual statement, you have to give references to śruti and smṛti. Otherwise, it is not valid. There must be veda-pramāṇa, śabda-pramāṇa: evidence from the Vedas and from the explanatory Vedic literature. Otherwise, there is no evidence. Your statement is not valid: you cannot change the original śruti-smṛti. But you have to take their particular recommendation for the particular time, just as Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu did when He urged His followers to heed the injunction of Bṛhan-nāradīya Purāṇa [3.8.126]:

harer nāma harer nāma
harer nāmaiva kevalam
kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva
nāsty eva gatir anyathā
[Cc. Ādi 17.21]

"Chant the holy name, chant the holy name, chant the holy name of Kṛṣṇa. In the present age of quarrel and anxiety, there is no other way to attain God realization, no other way, no other way." So śruti-smṛti-pramāṇa—citing evidence from the Vedas and the corollary literature—is the only method for making a spiritual statement. You have to take it.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Can anyone change ...

Śrīla Prabhupāda: No!

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ... the rules of conduct as described in the smṛtis?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Nobody can change them. But these particular rules and regulations in śruti-smṛti are for particular times, particular circumstances. So we have to take these rules and regulations. You cannot change them.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And who will sanction a particular application for a particular time and place?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes. This was done by Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya. When he appeared five hundred years ago, he sanctioned the application of śruti-smṛti because He's a genuine authority. He's a genuine ācārya. And we are following in the footsteps of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. It is not whimsical. You have to follow the authority in all circumstances.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is this Vedic religion, this sanātana-dharma, so broad that everyone is included?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes. Sanātana means "eternal." As Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre: [Bg. 2.20] "The living entity within the body is not destroyed when the body is destroyed, because he is eternal." So that eternality belongs to everyone. Not that the Hindus, after giving up this body, exist, and the Muslims or Christians do not exist. Everyone exists eternally. So sanātana-dharma is meant for everyone.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Then is there anyone actually outside of sanātana-dharma?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Nobody is actually outside. Everyone is an eternal spirit soul, and therefore everyone is meant for the eternal religion, sanātana-dharma. You may think that you are not an eternal spirit soul, but that is simply illusion. There are so many rascals who think that with the death of the body, everything is finished. They may think so, but that is not a fact. Similarly, you may think, "I am not a sanātana-dharmī—a follower of sanātana-dharma—I am a Christian," but actually you are a sanātana-dharmī. Of course, if you wish to think otherwise, you can. Who can check it?

Hari-sauri: So whether one can be accepted as following sanātana-dharma depends on how one acts?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes. If one does not act accord to the rules and regulations of sanātana-dharma, that is his business. That's all.

[Kalpana.v]

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is the next question: "In the Kali-yuga, the current age of quarrel and hypocrisy, bhakti [devotional service to the Lord] has been described as the most suitable and easiest of paths for God realization. Yet how is it that Vedantic teachings, with their accent on jñāna [cultivation of knowledge], are being given the pride of place by noted savants?"


Śrīla Prabhupāda: The so-called Vedantists, the Māyāvādīs [impersonalists], are bluffers. They do not know what Vedānta is. But people want to be bluffed, and the bluffers take advantage of it. the two words combined in the word Vedānta are veda and anta. Veda means "knowledge," and anta means "goal" or "end." so Vedānta means "the end of all knowledge, or veda." Now, in the Bhagavad-gītā Lord Kṛṣṇa says, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ: [Bg. 15.15] "By all the Vedas I am to be known." So the whole Vedānta-sūtra is a description of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.


The first statement in the Vedānta-sūtra is athāto brahma jijñāsā: "Now, having attained a human birth, one should inquire into Brahman, the Absolute Truth." In a nutshell, Brahman is then described: janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]—"Brahman is the origin of everything." And in Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ: [Bg. 10.8] "I am the origin of everything." So, again, the Vedānta-sūtra actually describes Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead.


Now, because Śrīla Vyāsadeva knew that in this Kali-yuga people would not be able to study Vedānta-sūtra nicely on account of a lack of education, he personally wrote a commentary on the Vedānta-sūtra. That commentary is Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Bhāṣyaṁ brahma-sūtrānām:


Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam begins with the same aphorism as the Vedānta-sūtra: janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1], and continues, anvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ svarāt. So actually, the Vedānta-sūtra is explained by the author in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.


But the rascal Māyāvādīs—without understanding Vedānta-sūtra, and without reading the natural commentary, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam—are posing themselves as Vedantists. That means they are misguiding people. And because people are not educated, they're accepting these rascals as Vedantists. Really, the Māyāvādī Vedantists—they are bluffers. They are not Vedantists. They do not know anything of the Vedānta-sūtra. That is the difficulty. Actually, what is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam—that is real Vedānta.


So, if we take Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam as the real explanation of Vedānta-sūtra, then we will understand Vedānta, the end of knowledge. And if we take shelter of the Māyāvādī Vedantists, the bluffers, then we cannot understand Vedānta. People do not know anything, and as a result they can be bluffed and cheated by anyone. Therefore now they should learn from this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement what Vedānta is and what the explanation of Vedānta-sūtra is. Then they will be benefited.


If we accept Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam as the real commentary on Vedānta-sūtra, then we'll find that in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is said, kaler doṣa-nidhe rājann asti hy eko mahān guṇaḥ: "In this Kali-yuga, which is an ocean of faults, there is one benediction, one opportunity." What is that? Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet: [SB 12.3.51] "One can become liberated simply by chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra." This is real Vedānta.



And actually, this liberation by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa is happening. But people want to be misguided. And there are so many bluffers to misguide them. What can be done? Vyāsadeva has already given the perfect explanation of Vedānta-sūtra—the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So let people read the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam; then they will understand what Vedānta is.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Then are the conclusion of the Vedānta-sūtra and the conclusion of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam one and the same—bhakti?


Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes. Find this verse: Kāmasya nendriya-prītir...


Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:


kāmasya nendriya-prītir
lābho jīveta yāvatā
jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā
nārtho yaś ceha karmabhiḥ


"Life's desires should never be directed toward sense gratification. One should desire only a healthy life, or self-preservation, since a human being is meant for inquiry about the Absolute Truth. Nothing else should be the goal of one's works." [Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 1.2.10]


Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes. This verse of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam proceeds directly from the Vedānta-sūtra—athāto brahma jijñāsā: "Now is the time to inquire about the Absolute Truth." Here the very same thing is explained. "Don't be entrapped with these temporary, bodily 'necessities of life'—sense gratification. You must inquire about the Absolute Truth." the next verse of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam explains, vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvaṁ yaj jñānam advayam: [SB 1.2.11] "Those who know the Absolute Truth describe Him in this way ..." Tattva means "truth."



The truth is explained by the tattva-vit, one who knows the truth. How? Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate: the Absolute Truth is explained as Brahman, the all-pervading spiritual effulgence; as Paramātmā, the localized Supersoul; or as Bhagavān, the Supreme Lord. Understanding these is what Vedānta-sūtra means when it says, athāto brahma jijñāsā: "Now one should learn about the Absolute Truth—what Brahman is, what Paramātmā is, what Bhagavān is. In this way, one should make advancement in his spiritual consciousness."


The Māyāvādī Vedantists follow the impersonal commentary of Śaṅkarācārya, Śārīraka-bhāṣya. But there are other commentaries on the Vedānta-sūtra. Besides the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, the natural commentary by the author of Vedānta-sūtra himself, there are Vedānta-bhāṣyas written by Vaiṣṇava ācāryas such as Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, and Baladeva Vidyābhūṣana. Unfortunately, the Māyāvādī Vedantists do not care to read these Vaiṣṇava Vedānta-bhāṣyas. They simply read Śārīraka-bhāṣya and call themselves Vedantists.


Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Why do the Māyāvādī Vedantists read only one commentary? What is the reason for that?


Śrīla Prabhupāda: The reason is that they want to read something that will confirm their illusion that they are God.


The Māyāvādī Vedantists cheat. Suppose I present some proposition. If it is a misconception, generally there are others also who can say something to clarify this misconception. For instance, in a court of law, there are two lawyers. One lawyer is speaking on one point of the law, the other lawyer is speaking on another point of the law. But if the judge listens to one side only, then how will he make a proper judgement? Similarly, the Vedantists are simply reading the Śārīraka-bhāṣya. They are not reading other bhāṣyas, such as the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, which is the natural commentary. And they are cheating people. That's all.


Now, the Vedānta-sūtra says, janmādy asya yataḥ: [SB 1.1.1] "The Absolute Truth is that from which everything emanates." But this needs some explanation. One may ask, "Is that Absolute Truth personal or impersonal?" Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa clearly says, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate: [Bg. 10.8] "I am the origin of everything; everything comes from Me." So why don't you Māyāvādī Vedantists take it? Why do you simply remain stuck at the point that the Absolute Truth is that from which everything emanates? When Kṛṣṇa, the Absolute Truth, comes before you and says, "I am the origin of everything—everything comes from Me," why don't you accept Kṛṣṇa as the Absolute Truth? Why do you take the impersonalist view only, that the Absolute Truth has no form? Here is the Absolute Truth speaking—a person. Why don't you take it?


Of course, if people want to be cheated, then who can stop them? In Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa also says, vedānta-kṛd ... eva cāham: "I am the compiler of Vedānta." Why do these rascals not consider who compiled Vedānta? Vyāsadeva is the incarnation of Kṛṣṇa. He compiled Vedānta. Why do these rascals not consider the original Vedantist, Kṛṣṇa? They approach a Māyāvādī instead. So how will they understand Vedānta?


Suppose I have written a book. If you cannot understand something in it, then you should come directly to me for an explanation. That is sensible. Why go to a rascal who has nothing to do with my book? Similary, some rascal Māyāvādī may claim, "I am a Vedantist," but why should I go to a rascal instead of the real compiler of the Vedānta-sūtra?


Those who approach the Māyāvādī Vedantists for knowledge are also rascals. They are willingly being cheated. Let the Māyāvādī Vedantists and their followers accept the conclusions of Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Then they will understand Vedānta-sūtra. They'll be real Vedantists. Otherwise, they will remain cheaters. So if you go to a cheater you'll be cheated, and that is your business.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, are you saying that the Māyāvādīs have no knowledge at all?


Śrīla Prabhupāda: Once again, Vedānta means "the ultimate knowledge." And what is that knowledge? Kṛṣṇa explains in the Bhagavad-gītā [7.19]: bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate. "After many births, one who is actually in knowledge at last surrenders unto Me." So unless one surrenders to Kṛṣṇa, there is no jñāna, no knowledge.


Therefore the Māyāvādī Vedantists are all nonsense—they have no knowledge at all. The subject matter of ultimate knowledge, Vedānta, is Kṛṣṇa, God. So if one does not know who God is, who Kṛṣṇa is, and if one does not surrender to Him, then where is the question of knowledge? But if a rascal claims that "I am a man of knowledge," what can be done?


In Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa goes on to explain: vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ [Bg. 7.19]. "when one understands that Vāsudeva, Kṛṣṇa, is everything, then that is knowledge. But such a mahātmā is very rare." Before coming to this understanding, one has no knowledge. His so-called understanding is simply misunderstanding. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate: [SB 1.2.11] one may begin with understanding impersonal Brahman by the speculative method; then, in the secondary stage, one can understand the Paramātmā, the Lord's localized aspect; and the final stage is to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam: [Bg. 15.15] by all the Vedas, Kṛṣṇa is to be known. That is the ultimate knowledge. But if you do not understand Kṛṣṇa, then where is your knowledge? Half-way knowledge is not knowledge. It must be complete knowledge.


That complete knowledge is possible, as it is said in the Bhagavad-gītā, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante [Bg. 7.19]—after many births. Those who are striving to acquire knowledge—after many, many births, when actually by the grace of God and by the grace of a devotee they come to knowledge, then such persons agree, "Oh, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti: [Bg. 7.19] Kṛṣṇa is everything." Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ: that mahātmā, that great soul, is very rarely to be found. Durlabhaḥ means "very rarely found," but the word used is sudurlabhaḥ—"very, very rarely to be found." So you cannot easily find such a mahātmā who clearly understands Kṛṣṇa.

[Kalpana.v]

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: May I ask another question, Śrīla Prabhupāda? "Is a guru essential for one to enter the spiritual path and attain the goal, and how does one recognize one's guru?"

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, a guru is necessary. In the Bhagavad-gītā, when Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna were talking as friends, there was no conclusion. So Arjuna decided to accept Kṛṣṇa as his guru. Find this verse in Bhagavad-gītā: kārpaṇya-doṣopahata svabhāvaḥ.

Hari-sauri:

kārpaṇya-doṣopahata svabhāvaḥ
pṛcchāmi tvaṁ dharma-sammūḍha-cetāḥ
yac chreyaḥ syān niścitaṁ brūhi tan me
śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ tvāṁ prapannam

"[Arjuna said:] Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all composure because of miserly weakness. In this condition I am asking You to tell me for certain what is best for me. Now I am Your disciple, and a soul surrendered unto You. Please instruct me." [Bg. 2.7]

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes. So a guru is necessary. Like Arjuna, everyone is perplexed about his best course of action. Nobody can decide by himself. Even a physician—when he is sick he does not devise his own treatment. He calls for another physician, because his brain is not in order. How can he prescribe the right medicine for himself?

Similarly, when we are perplexed and cannot find any solution, at that time the guru is required. It is therefore essential for everyone to surrender to a guru, since in our present existence we are all perplexed. Arjuna is representing the perplexed position of the materialistic person. So under the circumstances, a guru is required to give us real direction.

Now, Arjuna selected Kṛṣṇa as his guru. He did not go to anyone else, because he knew, "I can't find any other means to pacify me. You are the only one." The purport is that like Arjuna, we should also accept Kṛṣṇa as the guru who can intruct us in how to get relief from our perplexed position. So Kṛṣṇa is the guru not only for Arjuna, but for everyone.

If we take instruction from Kṛṣṇa and abide by that instruction, then our life is successful. Conveying that fact is our mission. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement teaches, "Accept Kṛṣṇa as your guru. Don't divert your attention." We don't say, "I am Kṛṣṇa; follow my order." We never say that. We simply ask people, "Please abide by the order of Kṛṣṇa." Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66], and we say the same thing: "Give up all other ideas of so-called dharma and surrender to Kṛṣṇa." The same thing. we don't say of ourselves, "I am the authority." No, we say, "Kṛṣṇa is the authority, and you should surrender to His instruction and try to understand Him." This is the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

Now, one may say, "Kṛṣṇa is no longer present, so how can I surrender to Him?" Kṛṣṇa is no longer present? How can you say that? Kṛṣṇa's instruction is there—Bhagavad-gītā. How can you say that Kṛṣṇa is not present? Kṛṣṇa, being absolute, is not different from His words. The words of Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa Himself—they are the same. That is the meaning of Absolute Truth.

In the relative world, the word water and the substance water are different. When I am thirsty, if I simply chant "Water, water, water," my thirst will not be satisfied. I require the real water. That is the nature of the relative world and relative consciousness. But in the spiritual world or spiritual consciousness, the name is the same as the thing that is named. For instance, we are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. If Kṛṣṇa were different from the chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa, then how could we be satisfied chanting the whole day and night? This is the proof. An ordinary name—if you chant "Mr. John, Mr. John," after chanting three times you'll cease. But this Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra—if you go on chanting twenty-four hours a day, you'll never become tired. This is the spiritual nature of the Absolute Truth. This is practical. Anyone can perceive it.

So Kṛṣṇa is present through His words and through His representative. Therefore we advise everyone to accept Kṛṣṇa's instructions in Bhagavad-gītā and to surrender to His bona fide representative. You have to accept a guru, so why go to a pseudo guru, who will mislead you? Why not take instructions from a real guru? Now you are in doubt about whether a guru is needed. Yes, a guru is needed, but you have to go to a real guru. That is the instruction given by Kṛṣṇa in the Bhagavad-gītā. Just find this

tad viddhi praṇipātena
paripraśnena sevayā
upadekṣyanti tad-jñānaṁ
jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth." [Bhagavad-gītā 4.34]

Śrīla Prabhupāda: So this is the real guru—one who has seen the truth, just as Arjuna has seen Kṛṣṇa. Arjuna heard Kṛṣṇa's instructions and said, "You are the Absolute Truth." Now, if you take the instruction of Arjuna, then you will understand the Absolute Truth. So what is the instruction of Arjuna? Find out in the tenth chapter.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:

arjuna uvāca
paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma
pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān
puruaṁ śāśvataṁ divyam
ādi-devam ajaṁ vibhum

"Arjuna said, 'You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the ultimate abode, the purest, the Absolute Truth. You are the eternal, transcendental, original person, the unborn, the greatest.'" [Bhagavad-gītā 10.12]

Śrīla Prabhupāda: And the Vedānta-sūtra says, athāto brahma jijñāsā: "Now, in the human form of life, is the time to inquire into what is the Supreme Brahman." So here in Bhagavad-gītā Arjuna has realized, "O Kṛṣṇa, You are the Supreme Brahman," So you should make Arjuna your guru and Kṛṣṇa your guru. Arjuna is the representative of Kṛṣṇa, the friend of Kṛṣṇa. The guru is essential. But why go to a bogus guru? You will be cheated. For instance, when you are diseased, for your treatment you need to go to a physician. But you want to go to a real physician, not a cheater who has no knowledge of medical science and misrepresents himself—"I am a physician, an M.D." Then you'll be cheated. The guru is necessary; that's a fact. But go to the real guru. Who is the real guru? The real guru is Kṛṣṇa or one who has seen Kṛṣṇa, such as Arjuna.

[Kalpana.v]

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: May I ask the next question, Śrīla Prabhupāda? "Are fasting and other dietary regulations necessary for leading a spiritual life?"

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Certainly. For advancement in spiritual life, such tapasya is essential. Tapasya means voluntarily accepting something which may be painful. For instance, we are recommending no illicit sex, no intoxication, no gambling, no meat-eating. So those who are accustomed to these bad habits—for them, in the beginning it may be a little difficult. But in spite of this difficulty, one has to do it. That is tapasya. To rise early in the morning—for those who are not practiced, it is a little painful, but one has to do it. So according to the Vedic injunctions, there are some tapasyas that must be done.

It is not "I may do it or not do it." These austerities must be done. For example, in the Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad it is ordered that if one wants to become self-realized, one must approach a spiritual master: tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU

At the very beginning of life one must be a brahmacārī. He must go to the spiritual master's place and act like a menial servant. If the spiritual master says "go and pick up some wood from the forest," one may be a king's son, but he cannot refuse the spiritual master's order. He must go. Even Kṛṣṇa was ordered by His spiritual master to go and pick up some dry wood from the forest. So He had to go. Although His father was Nanda Mahārāja, a village vaiśya king, and although Kṛṣṇa was the Personality of Godhead Himself, still He could not refuse. He had to go. Nicavat—just like a menial servant. This is brahmācārya, spiritual student life. This is tapasya. Tapasya is so essential that one has to do it. There is no question of an alternative.

After brahmacārī life, one may marry. This means he enters gṛhastha life, household life. That is also tapasya. He cannot have sex whenever he likes. No. The śāstra says, "You must have sex like this: once in a month and only for begetting children." So that is also tapasya.

People do not follow any tapasya at the present moment, but human life is meant for tapasya—regulative principles. Even in ordinary affairs—let us say you are driving your car on some urgent business, and you see a red light. You have to stop. You cannot say, "I have to be there in a few minutes. I must go." No. You must stop. That is tapasya.

So tapasya means following the regulative principles strictly, according to the higher order. and that is human life.

Animal life, however, means you can do whatever you like. On the road, animals may keep to the right or keep to the left; it doesn't matter. Their irregularity is not taken as an offense, because they are animals. But if a human being does not follow the regulative principles, he is sinful. He'll be punished. Consider the same example: When there is a red light, if you do not stop you'll be punished. But if a cat or dog transgresses—"Never mind the red light; I shall go"—he's not punished. So tapasya is meant for the human being. He must do it if he at all wants to make progress in life. It is essential.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And so, Śrīla Prabhupāda, tapasya includes dietary regulations?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: That is also tapasya. For example, we prohibit meat-eating. So in your country this is a little troublesome. From the very beginning of life, a child is habituated to eating meat. the mother purchases powdered meat and mixes it with liquid and feeds it to the infant. I have seen it. So practically everyone has been brought up eating meat. yet I say, "Don't eat meat." Therefore that is troublesome. But if one is serious about becoming self-realized, one must accept the order. That is tapasya.

Tapasya applies to diet, to personal behavior, to dealings with others, and so on and so forth. In every aspect of life, there is tapasya. That is all described in the Bhagavad-gītā. Mental tapasya. Bodily tapasya. Verbal tapasya—controlling vaco-vegam, the urge to talk loosely or whimsically. You cannot talk nonsense. If you talk, you must talk about Kṛṣṇa. That is tapasya. There is also tapasya in connection with krodha-vegam, the urge to express one's anger. If one becomes angry and wants to express it by beating someone or doing something very violent, tapasya will restrict him—"No, don't do it." There is also tapasya with regards to the tongue, belly, and genitals. One cannot eat anything and everything, or at any time he pleases. Nor can one have sex freely, but only according to the scriptural injunctions. "I am sexually inclined, but I cannot do it. This is not the time." That is tapasya.

So one should practice tapasya in every way—in body, mind, words, personal behavior, and dealings with others. That is human life. Tapo divyam: [SB 5.5.1] if you want to simply be a human being, and especially if you want to make progress in spiritual life, you must act according to the sastric injunctions. That means tapasya. Before Brahma could take part in creation, he had to undergo tapasya. Is it not stated in the śāstra? Yes. So tapasya is essential. You cannot avoid it.

And what is the aim of performing tapasya? The aim is to please the Supreme Lord through the spiritual master. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādo:** "One can attain the mercy of the Lord only by attaining the mercy of the spiritual master." This is the idea.

Now, in today's educational institutions, who is teaching this tapasya? Where is the school or college? The students are even smoking in front of their teacher, and it is tolerated. No offense. What can you expect from such students? This is an animal civilization. This is not human civilization. No tapasya, no brahmacārī life. Real civilization means tapo divyam [SB 5.5.1], godly austerity. And this tapasya begins with brahmacārī life, learning to control the senses—that is the beginning of life. Not "A-B-C-D" learning, and maybe your character is less than an animal's, though you have a degree from the university. "Never mind. You have become a learned man." No—that is not accepted.

Even from the standpoint of basic moral instruction, we must ask, Who today is educated? The educated person is described by Cāṇakya Paṇḍita:

mātṛ-vat para-dāreṣu
para-dravyeṣu loṣṭra-vat
ātma-vat sarva-bhūteṣu
yaḥ paśyati sa paṇḍitāḥ


That is the paṇḍita, the learned man. In Bhagavad-gītā [5.18] Kṛṣṇa also describes the paṇḍita:

vidyā-vinaya-sampanne
brāhmaṇe gavi hastini
śuni caiva śva-pāke ca
paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ

"The humble sage, by virtue of true knowledge, sees with equal vision a learned and gentle brāhmaṇa, a cow, an elephant, a dog, and a dog-eater." That is a learned man. Not this degree-holder. A degree-holder who has no tapasya and no character—Kṛṣṇa says he is māyayāpahṛta-jñānā, "his knowledge is stolen by illusion." Although he has learned so many things, nonetheless, māyā has taken away his knowledge. He's a rascal. He's an animal. This is the perspective of Vedic civilization.

[Kalpana.v]

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the next question somewhat echoes the previous one: "There are various saṁskāras, or purificatory ceremonies, prescribed for every civilized person, from birth to death. Many of these saṁskāras are not being observed today. Should they be revived?"

Śrīla Prabhupāda: The real aim of saṁskāras is to bring a rascal to the platform of knowledge. Janmanā jāyate śūdraḥ: by birth, everyone is the same—śūdra. In other words, one is without any knowledge. So the purpose of saṁskāras is to gradually bring a person who has no knowledge of spiritual life to the spiritual platform. As it is said, saṁskārād bhaved dvijaḥ: by the purificatory processes, one attains spiritual rebirth. That is essential.

Human life is the opportunity for understanding what one is and what the aim of one's life is. The aim of life is to go back home, back to Godhead. After all, we are part and parcel of God. Somehow or other, we are now in this material existence. So the real aim of life is to return to the spiritual world, where there is no struggle for existence—blissful, happy life. we want unending blissful life, but it is not possible in the material world That happiness is in the spiritual world. So our aim should be to go there, and every human being should be given the chance. That is real education. That is called saṁskāra, the process of purification.

Now, altogether there are daśa-vidha-saṁskārah, ten kinds of purificatory processes. So, in this age it is very difficult to follow them. but if one chants the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra without any offense, under the guidance of a spiritual master, all these saṁskāras automatically become fulfilled, and one returns to his original, spiritual position.

Ahaṁ brahmāsmi—"I am a spirit soul." So, we are Brahman, spirit, and Kṛṣṇa is Param Brahman, the Supreme Spirit. As Arjuna said, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān: [Bg. 10.12] "You are the Supreme Spirit, the ultimate abode, the purest, the Absolute Truth." Kṛṣṇa is Brahman, or spirit, and I am also Brahman, but He's the Supreme Brahman, while I am minute Brahman. So my business is to serve Kṛṣṇa. That is the teaching of Lord Caitanya: jīvera 'svarūpa' haya kṛṣṇera 'nitya-dāsa' [Cc. Madhya 20.108]—"The real identity of the living being is that he is the eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa." So if one engages himself in his original, spiritual business, acting as the servant of Kṛṣṇa, then all processes of purification and reformation are fulfilled.

And that advantage of re-engagement in our original, spiritual business is given freely in this age: kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet [SB 12.3.51]—"Simply by chanting the Lord's holy name, one achieves spiritual liberation." The reformatory processes, or saṁskāras, are meant for purifying a person so that he becomes mukta-saṅgaḥ, liberated from all the bad association of material existence and eligible to go back home, back to Godhead. So this is the special advantage of chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra.

The question was, "Should purificatory processes be revived?" They should be revived as far as necessary, but all of them cannot be revived in this age. So people should take to the chanting of the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra. Then all reformation will be there, and people will come to the spiritual platform—brahma-bhūtaḥ, the realization of Brahman. Then prasannātmā: they'll be happy. Na śocati na kāṅkṣati: there will be no lamentation or needless hankering. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu: they will see everyone on the spiritual platform. And finally, mad-bhaktiṁ labhate param [Bg. 18.54]. In this way they will come to the platform of devotional service, and then their life becomes successful. Is that question answered or not?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Just one question I have, Śrīla Prabhupāda. You said that the saṁskāras should be revived as far as necessary?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: The essentials. For instance, to make one a brāhmaṇa, these four things are essential: no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication, no gambling. These essentials must be there; you cannot dispense with them. You must at least avoid sinful activities. Then one can practice Kṛṣṇa consciousness. As Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā [7.28]:

yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ
janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām
te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā
bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ

"Persons who have acted piously in previous lives and in this life and whose sinful actions are completely eradicated are freed from the dualities of delusion, and they engage themselves in My service with determination."

You cannot become a devotee unless you give up sinful activity. Therefore you have to begin by following these four prohibitions. You have to avoid sinful activities like illicit sex, meat-eating, gambling, and intoxication, including tobacco, coffee, and tea. Then you'll gradually become completely sinless. On one side you have to follow restrictions, and on the other side you have to engage yourself in devotional service. To engage oneself in devotional service under the order of the spiritual master and the śāstra is the way to remain on the transcendental platform.

The transcendental platform means there is no sinful activity. It is above any question of "sinful." "Pious" and "sinful" activities are there only as long as you are on the material platform. "Good" and "bad," "pious" and "sinful"—these are all considerations on the material platform. But when you are on the transcendental platform, you are automatically without sin. Kṛṣṇa confirms this in Bhagavad-gītā [14.26]:

māṁ ca yo' vyabhicāreṇa
bhakti-yogena sevate
sa guṇān samatītyaitān
brahma-bhūyāya kalpate

The life of vice and the life of piety are within this material world, but when one is spiritually engaged, he is above the material plane, on the spiritual plane.

So the whole thing is that if you chant the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra and give up these sinful activities, automatically you become reformed. You come to the spiritual platform. And in this way your life will become successful.


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[Kalpana.v]

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Next question, Śrīla Prabhupāda. "Do you envision a different role for the Vedic culture in the Western countries, where the influence of other great religions has been felt for centuries?"

Śrīla Prabhupāda: No. There is no "different role." God is one. God cannot be two. As Kṛṣṇa states in the Bhagavad-gītā [7.7], mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya: "There is no authority superior to Me." That is God. Now people have to understand that Kṛṣṇa is God. There is no "different role" for the Vedic culture. The role is the same worldwide. Five thousand years ago, Kṛṣṇa said, "I am the supreme authority. There is no authority superior to Me." He is still so. Therefore we are simply attempting to introduce Kṛṣṇa.

Previously nobody attempted to introduce the supreme authority, Kṛṣṇa, all over the world. We are just trying to introduce Kṛṣṇa, following the orders of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, who appeared five hundred years ago. He is Kṛṣṇa, and He wanted this Kṛṣṇa consciousness to be spread all over the world:

pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi-grāma
sarvatra pracāra haibe mora nāma
[CB Antya-khaṇḍa 4.126]

"In every town and village throughout the world," said Lord Caitanya, "the chanting of My holy name will be heard." Kṛṣṇa is not just for India. He is for everyone, because He is God. In Bhagavad-gītā He affirms, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā: [Bg. 14.4] "I am the seed-giving father of all living entities"—not just the living entities in the human society, but also all other living entities, like the aquatics, the insects, the plants, the birds, and the beasts.

Everything is there in the Vedic culture, but this culture of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which is summarized in Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, had not been preached properly. Everyone had interpreted Bhagavad-gītā in his own way, to satisfy his own whims. We are just trying for the first time to present Bhagavad-gītā as it is, and it is becoming effective. So this is not a "different role" for the Vedic culture. It is the actual role. Nobody had tried for it; therefore Kṛṣṇa had been unknown in the Western countries. But even though we have been attempting to introduce Him for only a few years, still, because it is reality, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is being accepted. So it is not a new role for the Vedic culture. The role is already there—to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's vision. He says especially to people born in India,

bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra
janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra
[Cc. Ādi 9.41]

"Anyone who has taken his birth as a human being in India, Bhāratavarṣa, should make his life successful and work for the upliftment of the whole world." Indians are meant for this business—for the upliftment of the whole world—because all over the world people are unaware of Kṛṣṇa. So anyone who is born in India should attempt to broadcast the message of Bhagavad-gītā and Kṛṣṇa. That is the order of Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

This is not a new role for the Vedic culture. The role is already there. Five hundred years ago, Caitanya Mahāprabhu spoke of it. But all the various swamis and yogis who came here—they never introduced Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Now it is being done, and people are accepting, naturally. This is the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

So if everyone joins—either Indian or non-Indian—in this movement, there will be one religion and there will be peace. Peace will prevail. This is the only way.

bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ
sarva-loka-maheśvaram
suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ
jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati
[Bg. 5.29]

"A person in full consciousness of Me, knowing Me to be the ultimate beneficiary of all sacrifices and austerities, the Supreme Lord of all planets and demigods, and the benefactor and well-wisher of all living entities, attains peace from the pangs of material miseries." This is the way to attain śānti, peace. Understand Kṛṣṇa—that He is the supreme enjoyer, the supreme proprietor, and the supreme friend of everyone. "Accept Kṛṣṇa as your friend. You'll be happy." This is the message of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.



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